Holidays to Switzerland Travel Podcast Episode 102 Transcript
How to enjoy 20+ free mountain excursions with the Berner Oberland Pass
You can see the full show notes and listen to this episode > here.
Intro
Are you dreaming of visiting Switzerland? Planning a trip to Switzerland is very exciting, but it can also be overwhelming. How do you choose which of the many scenic cities, towns and villages to visit? Which mountain top excursions should you take? And what’s the best way to get around Switzerland? And of course, how much of the country can you realistically see within your timeframe? If you’ve asked yourself any of these questions, this is the podcast for you. This is the Holidays to Switzerland travel podcast, and in each episode, your host Carolyn Schönafinger chats with Swiss travel experts to answer your most commonly asked questions, provide practical tips and take you on a virtual visit to the most popular destinations, and of course, some hidden gems to help you plan your dream trip to Switzerland. And you’ll hear plenty of conversations about Swiss cheese and chocolate too. Are you ready to plan your trip to Switzerland? Well, let’s get started.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Hi there. Welcome to Episode 102. If you’re planning on including the Bernese Oberland, which includes Interlaken and the Jungfrau region, in your Swiss vacation, you’re probably planning to enjoy a mountain excursion or two. So how good would it be if you could visit more than 20 mountain summits for free. With the Berner Oberland pass, that’s exactly what you can do.
Carolyn Schönafinger
The Berner Oberland Pass is my go-to pass whenever I visit the Bernese Oberland. Not only does it cover public transport in the region, that’s trains, buses and boats, it also includes a huge number of free mountain excursions, and it gives you discounted admission to lots and lots of attractions and activities in the region. The Berner Oberland Pass covers a wide area from Lucerne to Bern and as far south as Domodossola. And it’s one of the most purchased Swiss rail passes from the Holidays to Switzerland webshop. You can get your Berner Oberland Pass at holidaystoswitzerland.com/shop.
Carolyn Schönafinger
To tell us more about the Berner Oberland Pass and some of the fantastic but lesser known excursions that the pass covers, today we’re welcoming back Jana Amacher. Jana is the manager of the Berner Oberland Pass, and she appeared on episode 46 to tell us all about this fantastic transport and sightseeing pass. I’m thrilled to welcome her back today to learn more about some of those lesser known excursions that the Berner Oberland Pass covers.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Hello, Jana, thank you very much for coming back onto the podcast.
Jana Amacher
Hi, Carolyn. Thanks for having me again.
Carolyn Schönafinger
My pleasure. For those folks who haven’t listened to your previous episode, where you told us all about the Berner Oberland Pass, can you just give us a bit of an overview of the pass just so people understand what we’re actually talking about today?
Jana Amacher
Yes, of course. Well, the Berner Oberland Pass is actually like a train ticket or all in one ticket, because it gives you access to public transport throughout the Bernese Oberland. And you can choose whatever you like, like boats are included trains, buses. And what makes us unique is that also mountain excursions within the Berner Oberland are included. It starts from Bern, Lucerne, Saanen and Domodossola. And we start from three days up to 10 days.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Fantastic. So it’s certainly a great area that is covered by the pass there, and I’ve used it many times and it’s fantastic. I think a lot of people when they’re coming to the Berner Oberland, and thinking about doing mountain excursions they’ve probably heard of, I guess you say the real famous one is Jungfraujoch, Schilthorn, probably Grindelwald First. If anyone has Instagram, they would see lots and lots of pictures of those popular destinations. But really, there are so many mountain excursions in the Berner Oberland that people could use their pass to go and visit. So I wanted to chat to you today about a few of them that our listeners perhaps haven’t heard of, but are definitely worth including. So the one I’d like to start with is Niederhorn. Could you tell us a bit about that? Where it is in relation to Interlaken? What people can do there? How they get there, all that sort of info.
Jana Amacher
Yes, of course. I’ve been there like five times I think. So, there are like two ways to get there. You either take a bus from Interlaken Ost, which goes directly to Beatenberg, or you travel there by boat. So you have two ways. And what I most of the time do is I take like a round trip. So we have both ways covered. And it also depends on how much time you have, so it can do round trip. And once you are there, or if you’re here during summer, every Friday and Saturday evening, they have evening rides. So that’s really special to do, because the panoramic view is nice in the evening. And there are less people because not everyone knows about this product. So that’s a great thing to do.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Yeah, so I think I’ve been in Niederhorn a couple of times myself, actually, one time, I was actually staying at the Beatenberg, and we went up there on the bus. And that’s quite a, it’s a very scenic ride, but it’s very windy, isn’t it? And it’s not your usual bus ride. So that was really interesting. But as you said, you can also get to the bottom station by boat. And if that’s the case, you go up on a funicular to Beatenberg, don’t you?
Jana Amacher
Exactly, like the first part is the funicular and where you started at Beatenberg then you take the gondolas from there on. So like different parts, and I think every part is like really scenic. So you told about the bus, right? That’s also a nice thing to do.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Yeah, and one of the things that stood out for me when I visited Niederhorn is that it’s I wouldn’t say it’s underdeveloped, but it’s certainly not, you don’t have all the tourist attractions, I guess, that you do on those other mountains that we mentioned earlier. So you’re there to appreciate the views, take in the surroundings, the beautiful natur. I think there’s some animals there that you can be lucky enough to see, ibex if my memory serves me correctly.
Jana Amacher
Yeah, did you see some? Because I actually watched, the five times I’ve been there, three times there were ibex. So I think quite often, they’re just up on the summit.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Okay, yeah, no, I wasn’t lucky enough when I was visiting. There’s some activities too, that you can do there, aren’t there. That’s possibly a good option for people who maybe don’t want to go to Grindelwald First and join the queues for the trotti bikes. You can also do that from Niederhorn.
Jana Amacher
Yes, you have scooters where you can rent. The also have smaller children, you’ll find a playground or you have the restaurant. So I think it you have many options besides of walking, of course.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Yeah, right. And is Niederhorn accessible all year round.
Jana Amacher
Yes, you can go there all year. Of course, they have some time when they close for maintaining, but in winter, it offers opportunities for skiing, sledging and winter hiking or snowshoeing. So you can do all the things in winter as well.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Okay, excellent. So if someone was planning perhaps on doing that round trip that you mentioned, how long do you think they should allow for their excursion from Interlaken?
Jana Amacher
I would take at least half a day. But for example, you could also combine it with the Beatus Höhlen which is also on the bus line there. And then it takes a whole day. But of course, you can also spend the whole day on the Niederhorn itself. So it always depends what you like to do.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Sure. And the Beatus Höhlen that you mentioned, that’s the Beatus Caves, isn’t it?
Jana Amacher
Exactly. Yes.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Yeah. Okay, good. All right. So let’s move on to Mount Niesen. This is a very iconically shaped mountain.
Jana Amacher
Yes, exactly. You go there by train from Interlaken. There’s a train which goes to Mülenen, that’s the station at the foot of the Niesen, and from there on, you take the Niesen funicular, that’s the red mountain train, I’d say. Also, there you have a spectacular view. And yes, it’s so iconic. You already told because it’s the Swiss pyramid, it has an iconic shape. Actually, if you are on the Niesen, you don’t see this shape, so good. But for example, before we were on the Niederhorn, and then you have a great view on the shape, also from the lake.
Carolyn Schönafinger
It’s just like a big triangle, isn’t it just sitting there on the horizon? It’s very interesting.
Jana Amacher
And you always know which mountain it is. Actually in Switzerland, people have apps on the phone to see which mountain is which mountain, but for Niesen you never do that because you always know which one is Niesen.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Yes, sure. And there’s a bit of an interesting story about the staircase that goes beside the funicular track, isn’t there?
Jana Amacher
Yes, it’s actually the longest staircase. There’s a, once a year there’s like a competition that takes place. So it will be worth to see the runners going up because it’s quite exhausting.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Yeah, I remember I think there’s something like 11,000 steps or something, so you’d want to do a bit of training before you did that event. What sort of things are there to do at the summit when people go up to Mount Niesen?
Jana Amacher
Once you arrive there, you will find the big platform with the views from like every corner. And of course, there’s also a nice restaurant. And for those who want to explore a bit further, you’ll find some hiking trails starting from there. And in the summer months, they have often cultural events and concerts in the restaurant. So I think that’s quite nice to have. But of course, also for children, they have some things but actually, it’s the view, which is the most important thing once you are up there.
Carolyn Schönafinger
I have been lucky enough to go to Niesen a couple of times and sitting out on that beautiful sunny terrace having a meal and looking over the views of both Lake Thun and Lake Brienz and all the mountains it’s, yeah, it’s amazing. Mount Niesen isn’t open all year round, though, is it?
Jana Amacher
No, normally they start end of April and are open till beginning of November. But they always write on the website. If the weather allows it’s even a bit longer. It always depends on the snow condition as Niesen is quite high. So they need to see how long they can run the funicular.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Okay, and would you say that half a day again is enough for an excursion from Interlaken?
Jana Amacher
Yes, if you don’t plan to hike, if you just go up, take coffee at restaurant and then go back. Half a day is enough. And then you could do something else in the afternoon.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Okay, excellent. Mount Stockhorn is another mountain that I’d like to ask you about. This is one that I haven’t been to. So I’m really interested to hear what there is to do there and, and a bit more about it.
Jana Amacher
Oh, nice. You need to do this this summer. Because it’s actually quite nice. You take it actually to train to Erlenbach in Simmental. And from there on there’s two different gondolas for the first part, and then you’re on the middle station. And then you take like the iconic little red one, which you see everywhere on the internet, it’s the old one, but it looks so nice. So I hope they don’t renovate. And with this little one, you go to Stockhorn. Actually you can also do a bungee jump from this little red gondola, but you can also just go up. So that’s no problem.
Carolyn Schönafinger
I can tell you, I will not be bungee jumping. What else is there? Is there any sort of activities or things apart from bungee jumping to do once you’re at the summit?
Jana Amacher
Last summer, I went to Stockhorn for a moonlight dinner. So in summer, if there is full moon, they have the moonlight dinner, which is worth it, because actually, it’s once a month, so maybe you’re lucky enough to see that. And you see then the sunset, which is quite nice. And on Stockhorn itself, it’s also like the view, which is amazing. And if you want to spend like a whole day, you better go to the middle station, because there’s the Hinterstockensee. And you can do many hikes, which are quite flat. So they’re not too exhausting. But still, it’s a bit exhausting. So it’s like perfect hiking conditions. And also on the middle station, you will find playgrounds for children. You can just sit at the lake. So I think there are like more options to spend the day and the Stockhorn itself is more to to enjoy something at the restaurant and have a great view.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Okay, yeah, that’s good to know. Definitely one I’ll have to check out. I’ll be there in summer as well as winter this year. So is Stockhorn open all year round?
Jana Amacher
Yes, it’s all year round. Of course also here sometimes they have maintaining works besides the season.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Okay. All right. So heading back in the other direction from Interlaken now another mountain I haven’t been to is Alpentower. I think that’s in the Hasliberg region. Is that right?
Jana Amacher
Yeah, that’s really easy for me as I live in Meiringen. So I spent I don’t know like five or six times per summer and five to six times in winter I will go to Alpentower because it’s actually like the highest point in my area. From Interlaken you take the train to Meiringen, which is quite a nice train ride because you cross Lake Brienz. And then you take the gondola up to Alpentower. They are like different parts of gondolas because it’s quite high. But it’s all so you just take gondola per gondola, so that’s no problem at all.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Okay, so when you get out of one gondola, the next one’s waiting.
Jana Amacher
Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, just like running all the time.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Yeah, it is Switzerland after all, so everything’s beautifully synchronized.
Jana Amacher
Exactly. Yeah.
Carolyn Schönafinger
So what is there to do at Alpentower?
Jana Amacher
So for example, in summer what locals do is having brunch there because in summertime everyday they have a brunch buffet. And make sure to get a window seat because you have a view on 401 mountain peaks.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Wow. 401.
Jana Amacher
Yes. There’s also like a little platform where you can walk and paragliders start from there. So you can just have a look how they start. You see Lake Brienz, or what I really like to do is you take a three to four hours hike to like, Engstlen. That’s a really nice mountain lake and it’s a nice hike because it’s actually also flat. So it’s a long hike, three to four hours, but it’s actually worth because of the panoramic views.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Okay, and with that hike, is it a circular hike, do you come back to the same point to go back down the mountain or do you hike to a different gondola and go back down?
Jana Amacher
You take then the bus to go back to Meiringen and it’s like a round trip and for this you need a whole day.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Okay. Good.
Jana Amacher
But if you’re there with the family, I also recommend this with Stockhorn, you go a bit down to the other stations because there you have like playground and also many hiking trails, also themed hiking trails, so then it’s better to go down instead of going up to the top.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Okay. And you mentioned earlier that you also go there in winter, so obviously, apart from those times when the cable cars are having their annual maintenance, that it’s open all year round.
Jana Amacher
Yes, exactly. And then winter, you start skiing from Alpentower. But if you want to go winter hike or sledging, you start a bit lower. But actually what people do is they go up to Alpentower, have a look at the view. And then they go down with the gondola if they don’t ski.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Okay. And if people are listening and thinking that they would like to try the brunch, do they need to reserve a table in advance?
Jana Amacher
Generally, I always recommend because actually many local or Swiss people are there with big families. And if you reserve in advance, it’s always best because on the weekends, they’re quite booked, fully booked. And if you reserve you can say that you want to have a window seat.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Okay. Very good to know. And I guess they can just reserve those, make that booking on the Alpentower website. Would that be the place to do it?
Jana Amacher
Yes, exactly. They have phone number and email or just mountain railways. It’s all together.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Okay, fantastic. Okay, so let’s go back in the other direction now, back on the other side of Interlaken. Well, this lake is actually pretty famous. A lot of people do want to go there. It’s all over social media and the internet, Oeschinensee, and it’s reached by a cable car as well. So can you tell us a bit about the excursion to the beautiful lake Oeschinensee?
Jana Amacher
Yes, I’d also say that’s one of the more famous places you mentioned, and you take a train to Kandersteg and also from there you have a short walk to the gondola station and their little gondolas running all the time.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Yeah. So once you get up to the top station, it’s then another bit of a walk to the actual lake, isn’t it? Can you tell us a bit about why this lake is so special for those people who haven’t seen pictures of it?
Jana Amacher
I think it’s just the color. It’s like a turquoise or it’s really a special color. And when I’ve been there, I just took a really nice hiking trail above the lake, which is a bit exhausting, because it’s quite steep and sometimes a bit, yeah, a bit not dangerous, but you need to be a good walker and you shouldn’t go there with bad shoes. But once you reach a certain height, the lake is even more beautiful.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Yeah, if you’re there on a sunny day, it’s, the color of it is amazing. I’ve actually been on a sunny day and on a cloudy day and on the cloudy day the color wasn’t quite so beautiful and turquoise, but it’s still such a lovely lake because it’s just surrounded by the mountains. Yeah, really nice. We probably should mention to people that when they get up to the cable car station, it’s about a 30 minute walk to the lake itself. But there is an electric bus that you can pay a fee to take to the lake if you want to.
Jana Amacher
Yeah, exactly. If you don’t like to walk but the walk I think it should take some time. That’s not too bad to walk.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Yeah no, it’s lovely. And in summer there are cows grazing in the fields as you walk past it’s really nice. What sort of things can you do once you get there, aside from hiking?
Jana Amacher
There you can for example rent a boat and do some boat or rowing boats. There is also a mountain coaster, restaurants, so you can easily spend the whole day there just doing different things.
Carolyn Schönafinger
And it’s another mountain that’s open during the winter as well, isn’t it?
Jana Amacher
Yes, it’s also accessible in winter.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Yeah, good. So there’s plenty of options. Now the final one that we’ll chat about today, I haven’t been there and I’m not even sure how to pronounce it, but I’ll give it a crack. I’m gonna say Sillerenbühl
Jana Amacher
Yeah. Almost. Sillerenbühl is located in Adelboden. First you reach Adelboden by train and bus and from there you take the gondola up to Sillerenbühl.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Okay, so where do you change from train to bus?
Jana Amacher
You change in Frutigen from train to a bus to Adelboden.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Okay, and what is there to do on the mountain?
Jana Amacher
Sillerenbühl is quite nice for families actually but of course also for all the other peoples but actually they have a restaurant. And besides the restaurant, they have a playground even with a bouncy castle and they have themed hiking trails, barbecue areas, and on rainy days you’ll find the indoor playground, you have scooters. So as a family, you stay a bit to the main stations and if you want to do some hiking as couples, you just go a bit further so you can have everything.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Okay, so that’s obviously a little bit further from Interlaken. Should you allow a full day for that excursion?
Jana Amacher
Yes, I’d recommend to do a full day because of the connecting times but you could also do other things in Adelboden. Once you are in Adelboden, just make sure to do something there in the area. They have different gondolas, different hiking trails. Also, Aldenboden as a town is quite nice.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Yeah. Okay, and what about visiting Sillerenbühl? Is that it?
Jana Amacher
Sillerenbühl.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Sillerenbühl. Okay, is it accessible in winter?
Jana Amacher
Yes, it’s accessible in winter like the whole area in Adelboden is also winter destination for skiing, winter hiking, sledging also quite nice.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Okay, fantastic. Well, there’s six alternative excursions that people might like to try when they’re in the Bernese Oberland. So if they have to pass, the Berner Oberland Pass, how many mountain excursions are fully covered with it this year?
Jana Amacher
When it goes about mountain excursions, we have 27, which are fully covered.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Wow, that’s fantastic. And how many are discounted?
Jana Amacher
18 are discounted, most of the time, you get half price, sometimes like a special rate, but most of the time it’s really half price. Yeah, if you’re in in the region for three or four days, there’s just so many different excursions that you can choose from. And if you come back every year, you can try different ones all the time. And I did not even count like trains or buses. Sometimes if you go with the bus to Grosse Scheidegg that’s like a mountain excursions as well. But I just count like mountain excursion as gondolas or funiculars. Yeah, then they’re even more.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Absolutely. And the pass also gives people that have one discounted admissions too doesn’t it? Just lots of different attractions.
Jana Amacher
Yes, we have many partners, like the biggest one is Aareschluct or Ballenberg, then Outdoor Interlaken, and so like on every spot in the Berner Oberland, you get some discounts. We talked about the Beatus caves, you just show your pass at the entrance, and then you get the discount. Sometimes you can also write an email to them. But normally, it’s not usable online to buy a ticket. I get many emails to ask where’s the Berner Oberland Pass discount, so that’s not really digital at the moment.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Okay, so someone has the pass, which they’ve purchased when they get there or before they’ve traveled, and they go up to one of those places that are giving them a discounted admission, they just show their pass at the ticket office, and they’ll pay the discounted price?
Jana Amacher
Exactly. But for example for Outdoor Interlaken they have like different things and then you can also write an email so that you can still buy the ticket in advance when it can be sold out.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Okay, so what if someone has the pass and they want to do one of those free mountain excursions? What happens when they get to the bottom cable car station?
Jana Amacher
This always depends a bit. For example, I always recommend to buy the pass online in advance because then you have a QR code on the pass. Because if you buy it at the train station when you are in Switzerland, it’s the same price. So it’s not a more expensive or cheaper, but there is like no QR code. And with the QR code, on most of the mountain excursions, you can just scan the ticket like in the Jungfrau region with all the Jungfrau activities or the Lake Oeschinensee, you can just put your ticket inside the counter, or for Niesen, you just go there and show it to the staff and they just let you through the queue. And there are some places where you need to go to the counter and change for a free ticket.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Okay, yeah. So yeah, as you say, it depends a little bit on the destination that you’re going to. So apart from all those fantastic inclusions that the pass gives people, what would you say, are the main benefits of the Berner Oberland Pass?
Jana Amacher
So in order to get most of your money, it’s just a mountain excursions, because that’s the thing, they are just a bit expensive in Switzerland. So if you really want to make most of the pass just use many mountain excursions, for example, you can also do one in the morning, one in the evening. And I think like, the biggest advantage is, you never know how the weather is. So you can always choose ‘Okay, I’m gonna do Oeschinensee, and then tomorrow, I go to Beatus caves because it’s raining. So you’re 100% flexible, always, all the time.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Yeah. And I think too, you’re flexible, of course. But if you go and you do one of the excursions, and you’ve got a bit more time, you can then quickly decide we’ll go and do something else, we’ll go and visit somewhere else that we hadn’t originally thought about, because it’s already included with the pass. So that might be a boat cruise, or it might be just a train journey to another town just to have a look around. But you’ve got that flexibility and so many excursions and places to visit that are covered.
Jana Amacher
Yeah, that’s really fantastic.
Carolyn Schönafinger
So can you tell us again what durations the pass is available in?
Jana Amacher
We have 3,4,6,8 and 10 consecutive days. Like three years ago, we had the flex version, but this is no longer available because it was always a bit tricky to activate the days actually.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Okay, so consecutive days.
Jana Amacher
Yes, exactly.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Jana Amacher
Okay. And people can get the pass in both first and second class. Yes, if you do many mountain excursions, I’d recommend to buy second class, because for gondolas, you just have one class, of course, it’s first class, but you’ll only need the second class ticket. And if you plan to use many trains to go to Montreux to Domodossola, Bern, Lucerne then I go for first class because actually, if you take the Luzern Interlaken Express, which is included in the pass, then first class is really worth the money.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Yeah. And another great trip that people can do with the pass, although they can’t do that entire journey is the on the Golden Pass line between Interlaken as far as Saanen, isn’t it?
Jana Amacher
Yes, exactly. And then from Saanen to Montreux, you only need a half a ticket. So there you get like a special price.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Yeah. Fantastic. So many great options. You mentioned just before that you recommend that people buy their pass online before they travel so that they get that QR code. So the pass is sent to what, via email, and then you can download the PDF onto your phone. Is that correct?
Jana Amacher
Yes, exactly. And the pass is available with Carolyn, so with you on Holidays to Switzerland, and also if you buy the pass there on Holidays to Switzerland, you will get the QR code and you will have your E ticket, which is the best way to get it.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Fantastic. Well, thank you very much for sharing all that with us today. I think you’ve given so many other options that people can consider, perhaps not doing only the famous excursions that they’ve heard about, but looking at visiting some of the other mountains as well. And, of course, we’ve just covered a few and there are so many. So there is a list on your website and also on Holidays to Switzerland about all the different mountain excursions that are covered with the pass. I’ll put links to both of those websites in the show notes for this episode. And we will have to have you back Jana to talk more about using the pass during the winter season, now that this being the first year that the pass is available all year round. So I look forward to chatting to you a bit later in the year.
Jana Amacher
Yeah, me too. Thank you again for having me.
Carolyn Schönafinger
My pleasure. Thanks for sharing all that with us today.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Are you going to include one of the mountain excursions we’ve chatted about today in your Swiss itinerary. The Berner Oberland Pass gives you not only flexibility, but also variety, and you can save a considerable amount of money on your sightseeing, thanks to it including over 25 mountain excursions for free. Your hardest decision will be which mountain excursions to choose.
Carolyn Schönafinger
If you’d like to see a list of all the mountain excursions that are fully included with the pass, and which excursions, attractions and activities are discounted, check out the show notes for this episode. Don’t forget that all public transport in the Bernese Oberland is included for free too, making this pass excellent value for anyone visiting the region. You can buy your Berner Oberland Pass from our web shop at holidaystoswitzerland.com/shop.
Carolyn Schönafinger
Thanks so much for joining me today. If you enjoy the podcast, I’d be very grateful if you could spare a minute or two to leave a five star rating or a review on your favorite podcast app. Thanks so much. Until next time. Tschüss.
You can see the full show notes and listen to this episode > here.
